NZ/Aust Weather Comparisons

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 22:32

This station opened in January 1929 but didnt start measurements until June 1949.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 22:39

This one opened in December 1992 but didnt start recording until July 1995.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 22:48

Opened in January 1840 but didnt start measuring sunshine until January 1931. Some data missing especially during the first few years due to patchy & incomplete data. Same applies to April 1949 and May 1960. May 1976 data lost when changing site of sunshine readings.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 22:52

Measurements taken at the orginial Aero site.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 22:59

Double Post.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 22:59

This is the new site at Brisbane Aero - it was moved from the orginial one due to obstructions of sunshine readings from new buildings that have sprung up around the airport in recent years.

You can keep this up to date by going to the Brisbane Daily Weather Obs page on the BOM site. Note this station is numbered 040842 You will see this number at the bottom of the obs. page.

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Wed 30/05/2007 23:22

Oops, think you're having some finger trouble there - couldn't see data, then attachments disappeared. Will show patience and wait.

They've stuffed around with the site a bit, which is a pity. Auckland has a rather messy record with multiple sites and problems at various times - tree growth in Albert Park affecting records in the later 40s onwards, obstructions to the city NAC (as it was originally) site having an effect in the 80s, shading at Whenuapai in the later 90s, etc.

Ah - all looks good now. Thanks!!

Interesting that we were in Q'land in the relatively cloudy and damp Aug. 1998 - but also in the very sunny Aug/Sep 1991 in El Nino drought - also in the sunniest Aug (Byron & Brisbane) of 2004 - the sunniest year also.

Nice for an NZer escaping winter!

I see Brisbane Aero had about 38mm rain the other day, but obviously they need months of relief to gte out of their current situation.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 23:27

Which ones arent showing up?

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Wed 30/05/2007 23:35

All there now thanks, our posts just crossed.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 23:38

All showing up now?

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Wed 30/05/2007 23:44

All set! Thanks again!

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Wed 30/05/2007 23:49

Great.

Any questions - ask me anytime.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Thu 31/05/2007 00:55

RWood wrote:Oops, think you're having some finger trouble there - couldn't see data, then attachments disappeared. Will show patience and wait.

They've stuffed around with the site a bit, which is a pity. Auckland has a rather messy record with multiple sites and problems at various times - tree growth in Albert Park affecting records in the later 40s onwards, obstructions to the city NAC (as it was originally) site having an effect in the 80s, shading at Whenuapai in the later 90s, etc.

Ah - all looks good now. Thanks!!

Interesting that we were in Q'land in the relatively cloudy and damp Aug. 1998 - but also in the very sunny Aug/Sep 1991 in El Nino drought - also in the sunniest Aug (Byron & Brisbane) of 2004 - the sunniest year also.

Nice for an NZer escaping winter!

I see Brisbane Aero had about 38mm rain the other day, but obviously they need months of relief to gte out of their current situation.

Indeed so Rwood - you'll have seen that since 2000 - rainfall has been deficient especially 2000, 2002 and 2006, this year so far is contuining the trend. 1999 was the last really "Wet" year.

1991 was a very sunny and dry year. 1998 on the other hand was the opposite especially where cloud was concerned. ( I went to the Gold Coast during August 1998 for a week for a conference and it was wet, cloudy and cold)., also I was in Brisbane during January 1999 - hot, very oppressive and quite stormy including a 12 hour period when 110mm fell in torrential showers with thunder and lightning - totally awesome

.

2004 was very sunny with a very dry period from April - Oct with the majority of the rain falling outside those months - rainfall for the aforementioned year was termed "average" at the time.

Tell me about it ! (The messing around with sites part)

, hard work for me trying to tell the PC to sort out the data

, got there in the end so that counts for something. Frankly I consider Brisbane the worst place Oz-wide where weather obs are concerned as they have changed sites so many times !. I suppose there is the "consolidate" part but its not the same if you know what I mean but no harm really in doing that to compare old records that have been broken.

This question is related to some NZ data you put out for me a few pages back.

Christchurch sunshine readings - was that taken at the gardens and the obs that appear in the NIWA monthly summary - does that come from Chch Gardens too?

Dunedin (Musselburgh) is missing sunshine data from Sept. 1997 to April 2002 - I faintly remember a while back you mentioned that from Sept. 1997 onwards they moved the sunshine readings to the airport? Then somehow they started recording sunshine again at Musselburgh from May 2002 - does it still contuine to this day and the obs that appear in NIWA's summary - is that from Musselburgh?

Wellingtons ob's all come from Kelburn ? As I have just completed the rainfall data dating back to 1862.

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Thu 31/05/2007 08:21

This question is related to some NZ data you put out for me a few pages back.

Christchurch sunshine readings - was that taken at the gardens and the obs that appear in the NIWA monthly summary - does that come from Chch Gardens too?

Dunedin (Musselburgh) is missing sunshine data from Sept. 1997 to April 2002 - I faintly remember a while back you mentioned that from Sept. 1997 onwards they moved the sunshine readings to the airport? Then somehow they started recording sunshine again at Musselburgh from May 2002 - does it still contuine to this day and the obs that appear in NIWA's summary - is that from Musselburgh?

Wellingtons ob's all come from Kelburn ? As I have just completed the rainfall data dating back to 1862.

The Ch'ch sun readings come from the Airport (1949 onwards). Sunshine was also measured at the Gardens over the period 1930-1953. If you look at the online NIWA summaries for April a footnote letter indicates the Airport for all those stats. The Gardens site has been measuring temp. and rainfall since about 1864 from memory. It is a little warmer and wetter than the Airport.

The Musselburgh sun readings were resumed with electronic instrumentation after the 1997-2002 gap. There is also an Airport record from 1962-1991 or thereabouts, and nearby Invermay, Taieri from 1950-1962 (during the periods of overlap the Airport was slightly sunnier than the city). I have asserted for some time that the Musselburgh records were generally deteriorating relative to other places like Invercargill in the last decade or two, and the improvement since the new records started is very noticeable. The 30-year average for Dunedin 1971-2000 is artificially low in my opinion as a result of the old data being too low. The NIWA online reports are for Musselburgh (April, anyway). Incidentally the NIWA online summaries make Dunedin look almost as warm as Ch'ch as the Musselburgh site is quite warm due to quite high night minima. An averaged value over multiple Dunedin locations allowing for altitude would give a lower number. Kelburn is a reasonable proxy for W'gton's temps. if you average over the altitude of city and suburbs.

All Kelburn records start at 1928. The older site was first "Mt Cook" at the southern end of the city near the old Museum 1862-mid-1912 (can't remember the exact month), and then Sydney St in Thorndon at the northern end of the city area for mid-1912-1927. Sun started in mid-1906 at the same places.

Let me know if anything remains unclear. Thanks again for those data, they will keep me amused over the winter months. At the moment I'm somewhat distracted by employment matters.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Thu 31/05/2007 09:01

Right I see - the rainfall data that I have is dated "Kelburn" from 1862 onwards, I wonder why the other sites (As you pointed out) werent mentioned so can you give me the exact dates and month rainfall measuring started at the other 2 sites please so I can place them in seperate & correct databases.

I would be interested in obtaining a copy of the sunshine readings from 1906 as well.

Thanks.

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Thu 31/05/2007 09:53

I'd have to verify at a library, but the date Thorndon readings started was June 1912. So all older records (temp, sun, rain etc.) were at the first Mt Cook site. I'll enclose a graph which has table data in the "raw" page, which covers all pre-Kelburn sun. I think the oldest (Mt Cook) site is about comparably sunny with Kelburn, but Thorndon I think may have been at a slight disadvantage, especially in the period 1915-1920 - WW1 may have been a factor. The very low rainfall in 1915 doesn't fit well with the lowish sunshine.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Thu 31/05/2007 18:57

Thanks for that Rwood.

Just to clarify - sunshine readings taken at Mt Cook from 1906 - May 1912 then at Thorndon until 1927? Same applies to rainfall as well?

Im still puzzled re Kelburn because as you said they were taken at Mt Cook and Thorndon, yet rainfall measurements started at Kelburn in 1862? All a bit confusing atm.

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Thu 31/05/2007 19:26

janewaystv wrote:Thanks for that Rwood.

Just to clarify - sunshine readings taken at Mt Cook from 1906 - May 1912 then at Thorndon until 1927? Same applies to rainfall as well?

Im still puzzled re Kelburn because as you said they were taken at Mt Cook and Thorndon, yet rainfall measurements started at Kelburn in 1862? All a bit confusing atm.

All Kelburn records started in Jan. 1928 (it became the "official Govt. observatory" then).

From July 1906 - May 1912 sunshine, rainfall, temp. etc records came from Mt. Cook, and from June 1912 - Dec 1927 Thorndon was used. From 1862 - June 1906 Mt Cook had all the usual records except sunshine ones, and these were used for published Wellington data. I have not seen an assessment of the comparative rainfalls at the 3 sites, but my impression is that differences would be fairly small. There were of course a few other places around the urban area where rainfall was recorded - e.g. a longish record at Karori reservoir (not sure when it closed).

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Thu 31/05/2007 19:38

Got it now Rwood - thanks for that. My mind isnt the best today - all chaos and jumbled like a merry go around due to a very hectic day at work today

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Thu 31/05/2007 20:08

I know the feeling (though not recently). If you're interested I could post a workbook of Campbell Is. sunshine data - interesting to me because it's easily the cloudiest place that I've ever seen with detailed data. It's a little warmer and wetter than MacQuarie but much cloudier. Its sun records run from 1941-1994 or thereabouts, a minor site change in about 1957 that shouldn't have affected the data much. I suspect that as with many longterm places that there was some deterioration in exposure or instrumentation over the last couple of decades.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Thu 31/05/2007 21:57

Now that I've been sitting, winding down my mind is calmer

Yes - am very interested re Campbell Island sunshine totals

I had another "proper" look at the "book" re rainfall data, it appears that all rainfall stats. came under the location of "Kelburn" with no references to Mt Cook & Thorndon at all so thatâ€™s why I got confused in the first place as here you were telling me about those "other sites", thanks for the explanations. I'll have to separate them and put them in the correct databases whenever time allows.

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Thu 31/05/2007 22:09

Where did you get the Wellington rainfall data from originally?

RWood · Unread post by **RWood** » Thu 31/05/2007 23:13

Here's a couple of reports and a workbook for you.

Oops - added one to the wrong post, but they're all there.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Sat 02/06/2007 13:36

RWood wrote:Where did you get the Wellington rainfall data from originally?

It was in the book in handwritten form - however I asked my grandmother this morning she said my grandfather got them from someone at NIWA in 1995 (with updated data to end 2000) - this discovery throws a new light on "obtaining data for payment" because my grandmother said he got them for "free", and he should have the orginial sheets (as given to him by NIWA) somewhere in the box, so I delved (deeper this time

) in the box and found them in a plastic sheet hidden in a scrap-book which I hadnt looked at before - wow - I couldnt believe it because it contains all data for AKL, WGT, CHC, DUD and IVC dating back to when they first started measuring at those sites. They come in printed form (with punch-holes on either side), my grandfather didnt want to paste them in the book and couldnt use a PC so he wrote them (Not all though) down on sheets of lined A4 papers (Must have taken him a long time !). Judging by what was entered in the book - it seems that my grandfather was mainly focused on rainfall and sunshine stats.

Looked at the Wellington rainfall data (Orginial sheets) - it all comes under the heading "Kelburn" from 1862 onwards, however still no mention of Mt Cook and Thorndon sites, so I'll take your word for it

(Note the station number for Kelburn is E14272).

With Wellington's mean air temp stats. - very interesting because I have them in the orginial printed sheets from NIWA (My grandfather didnt write them down) and I didnt even know about them until this morning when I found as mentioned above - an unexpected bonus

so the sites are as following:-

Knowles Ob 1862 - 1868

Bowen St 1868 - 1869

Bolton Street Cemetery 1869 - 1906

Buckle Street 1906 - 1912

Thorndon 1912 - 1927

Kelburn 1928 - current

In regards to prior conversations about "WGT Rainfall Data and Sites" - Would I be right in assuming that "Buckle Street" is also referred to as Mt Cook" ? as the year mentioned match those of Mt Cook.

With extreme T-max & T-min air temps they are however all under Kelburn from 1869 to end 1998.

Now Im getting a bit confused (Again!) because as you said before all records post 1928 are from Kelburn and pre- 1928 from Mt Cook and Thorndon. Looks like we'll have to trash out some of the "sites & years " issues in good faith

.

janewaystv · Unread post by **janewaystv** » Sat 02/06/2007 13:42

RWood wrote:Here's a couple of reports and a workbook for you.

Oops - added one to the wrong post, but they're all there.

Thanks for that

Had a quick glance - certainly makes IVC (And Oz especially) look very sunny but given its size, latitude and location - to be expected really. 1943 is an exception - 5 of the sunniest months recorded during that year.

They dont record data anymore now ? As data is up to 1995.