[I'm thinking of getting some Perth data]
Strictly off-topic for a moment: if you've never seen the movie "Smoke", I recommend it - a great little film which celebrates humanity in a uniquely quirky way.
NZ/Aust Weather Comparisons
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These topics are a read-only archive and may be subject to out-of-date information.
For today's weather discussion head to: New Zealand Weather & Climate
These topics are a read-only archive and may be subject to out-of-date information.
For today's weather discussion head to: New Zealand Weather & Climate
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janewaystv
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RWood
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I guess the cloudy conditions mitigate matters a bit. We are up to 1520mm rain now, but I think an increasing drying (and very welcome here) trend will set in. Conversely, I see quite a few people think that the pattern in eastern Aus. is showing signs of change. Despite the spring, YTD sunshine here is still 84 hrs ahead of average as at the 11th.
I see a first "relay" of NZ firefighters is over in Victoria - you have to admire people in that type of work.
I see a first "relay" of NZ firefighters is over in Victoria - you have to admire people in that type of work.
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janewaystv
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Sunshine offically at 97 hrs up to Thursday night, no sun at all today (0.0 hrs), so only 97 hrs recorded in the 1st 15 days of this month (which is a very low value indeed). 4th day of no sun so far this month.
Dec 2005 had for the same period 161 hrs with 18 days each recording over 10 hours. So far this month only 2 days each recorded over 10 hours of sun. (Dec 2005 was the sunniest Dec. on record (322 hrs) and also the sunniest ever of any month.
The mean max currently stands at 24.9oC, (Oct. 2006 had 24.2oC and Nov. 2006 had 24.3oC - only a 0.1oC margin in between). Considering we had our warmest Sept. on record (a mean max. of 23.1oC) - this is quite a turn- around.
Dec 2005 had for the same period 161 hrs with 18 days each recording over 10 hours. So far this month only 2 days each recorded over 10 hours of sun. (Dec 2005 was the sunniest Dec. on record (322 hrs) and also the sunniest ever of any month.
The mean max currently stands at 24.9oC, (Oct. 2006 had 24.2oC and Nov. 2006 had 24.3oC - only a 0.1oC margin in between). Considering we had our warmest Sept. on record (a mean max. of 23.1oC) - this is quite a turn- around.
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janewaystv
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Speaking of El Nino - was thinking that it gives NZ more cooler, drier and sunnier weather especially to the N & E of both islands with more W-SW winds, here in Sydney - we have been getting a lot of cool E-SE-S winds with very few NW winds, I would have thought in a El Nino pattern - the winds here would be predominately from the W-NW-SW, but doesnt appear to be the case at all this month so far.
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janewaystv
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Looking at the models for the next week + - doesnt really show any signs of W-NW winds returning except for Friday (32oC), but will be tempered by the usual N-Easter wind blowing in the afternoon, its quite good really as it normally gives us nothing but clear and non-rainy days, so we're quite grateful for the prevailing cloudy, windy wet and cool weather (Also makes a pleasant change to what we had to suffer thru of Dec. 2005).
Going off topic - we discussed a few months ago about the "Summer of 1934-1935" - which for NZ was a very warm one. Looking at Sydneys Dec. mean temps. - December 1934 was the 2nd coldest Dec. on record for Sydney (mean temp. of 19.2oC). Coldest ever was Dec. 1924 (18.5oC) and 3rd coldest was Dec. 1960 (19.4oC).
Melbourne received twice its avge Dec. rainfall as well (116mm), Dec 1934. saw frequent unsettled weather over much of Victoria and NSW (Sydney having 158mm over the same period as well), with numerous storms as well.
Nov. 1934 saw Melb having its cloudiest Nov on record with 132 hrs (still stands to this day)
(Also makes a pleasant change to what we had to suffer thru of Dec. 2005).Going off topic - we discussed a few months ago about the "Summer of 1934-1935" - which for NZ was a very warm one. Looking at Sydneys Dec. mean temps. - December 1934 was the 2nd coldest Dec. on record for Sydney (mean temp. of 19.2oC). Coldest ever was Dec. 1924 (18.5oC) and 3rd coldest was Dec. 1960 (19.4oC).
Melbourne received twice its avge Dec. rainfall as well (116mm), Dec 1934. saw frequent unsettled weather over much of Victoria and NSW (Sydney having 158mm over the same period as well), with numerous storms as well.
Nov. 1934 saw Melb having its cloudiest Nov on record with 132 hrs (still stands to this day)
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RWood
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The summer of 1934-35 was easily NZ's warmest - and from Feb. 1934 right thru' to May 1935, with January excepted, MSLPs were very high. In Nov & Dec 1934 there was a large anticyclonic anomaly over and to the east of NZ, with probably a lot of lower pressure and S or SE flows over eastern Oz. There was more tropical inflow in Jan 1935 with lower pressures, but rainfalls were still generally low, from recollection. So the NZ sequence was a cool dry sunny 1934 becoming very hot at the end, and a warm humid late summer and autumn to follow.
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janewaystv
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Syd - 139 hrs so far. Looks like a extended sunny spell is expected for Syd from Xmas Day onwards thanks to dry W winds which normally brings clear days but temps will still be well below - average for this time of the year. (Only 5 days so far has exceeded the avge max of 25oC).
Vic, ACT and Tas will bear the brunt of it with rain, showers, snow and hail - showers expected on Xmas Day onwards. Canberra can expect very low min. temps as well. Adelaide can expect overcast and cool conditions over the same period.
Its certainly been a changeable December here - probably for many years with such extremes being experienced.
Vic, ACT and Tas will bear the brunt of it with rain, showers, snow and hail - showers expected on Xmas Day onwards. Canberra can expect very low min. temps as well. Adelaide can expect overcast and cool conditions over the same period.
Its certainly been a changeable December here - probably for many years with such extremes being experienced.
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RWood
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Welcome back - the complainers in W'gton have been out in force, and for once I can't really blame them 
. The last 3 months of 2006 were in my judgement the most unpleasant for Wellington's Oct-Dec in all the records back to at least 1928, with only the likely exception of 1992. And the coldness of December is still lingering a little in January. For NZ the regions worst off compared to their normal conditions (in Oct-Dec) were in the west from Taranaki to Wellington.
To some extent we were a bit overdue for this - even with the very high 1583mm or thereabouts for 2006, rainfall for the 7 years 2000-2006 has averaged about 1190mm, 55 down on the longterm average for the city. And 2005 had record low windiness, so 2006's bad ending in that respect came as a shock.
And at least the annual summaries will show that all 5 main centres had more than their average annual sunshine - in NZ, that's always got to be a plus.
- the complainers in W'gton have been out in force, and for once I can't really blame them . The last 3 months of 2006 were in my judgement the most unpleasant for Wellington's Oct-Dec in all the records back to at least 1928, with only the likely exception of 1992. And the coldness of December is still lingering a little in January. For NZ the regions worst off compared to their normal conditions (in Oct-Dec) were in the west from Taranaki to Wellington.To some extent we were a bit overdue for this - even with the very high 1583mm or thereabouts for 2006, rainfall for the 7 years 2000-2006 has averaged about 1190mm, 55 down on the longterm average for the city. And 2005 had record low windiness, so 2006's bad ending in that respect came as a shock.
And at least the annual summaries will show that all 5 main centres had more than their average annual sunshine - in NZ, that's always got to be a plus.
Although I can only comment on the 3 days I was in Wellington, from the 18th to the 20th December, I really loved the weather. Sure it was cold and it rained one of the days, but it was very pleasant. There's not many places in Australia were you can walk around all day in summer in full sunshine (with the odd cloud ) and not even break a sweat, or get sunburnt.
As far as the other 90 odd days in the Oct-Nov period I can only imagine it would have been a bit unpleasant going by the rainfall and sunshine stats, though you really dont have that bad a climate do you, even in an abnormaly wet or cloudy period, you must still get some glorious days fairly regularly?
This isn't directed at you Rwood, as you dont seem to be a complainer, but I never understood why some people complain about their weather, its not like you can change it, so why waste time complaining about it. Its kind of like complaining about the political party in power when you dont even vote.
Though I do notice the weather is much more talked about in NZ than in Perth, this might be because you guys have a lot more to talk about, but it is great to see none-the-less. I loved the 2006 weather summarys they had on One, just before Christmas, you wouldn't get that in Perth, though 2006 wasn't exactly a year we would want to remember, with it being our driest ever on record.
) and not even break a sweat, or get sunburnt. As far as the other 90 odd days in the Oct-Nov period I can only imagine it would have been a bit unpleasant going by the rainfall and sunshine stats, though you really dont have that bad a climate do you, even in an abnormaly wet or cloudy period, you must still get some glorious days fairly regularly?
This isn't directed at you Rwood, as you dont seem to be a complainer, but I never understood why some people complain about their weather, its not like you can change it, so why waste time complaining about it. Its kind of like complaining about the political party in power when you dont even vote.
Though I do notice the weather is much more talked about in NZ than in Perth, this might be because you guys have a lot more to talk about, but it is great to see none-the-less. I loved the 2006 weather summarys they had on One, just before Christmas, you wouldn't get that in Perth, though 2006 wasn't exactly a year we would want to remember, with it being our driest ever on record.
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RWood
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Tim S:Tim S wrote:Although I can only comment on the 3 days I was in Wellington, from the 18th to the 20th December, I really loved the weather. Sure it was cold and it rained one of the days, but it was very pleasant. There's not many places in Australia were you can walk around all day in summer in full sunshine (with the odd cloud
As far as the other 90 odd days in the Oct-Nov period I can only imagine it would have been a bit unpleasant going by the rainfall and sunshine stats, though you really dont have that bad a climate do you, even in an abnormaly wet or cloudy period, you must still get some glorious days fairly regularly?
This isn't directed at you Rwood, as you dont seem to be a complainer, but I never understood why some people complain about their weather, its not like you can change it, so why waste time complaining about it. Its kind of like complaining about the political party in power when you dont even vote.
Though I do notice the weather is much more talked about in NZ than in Perth, this might be because you guys have a lot more to talk about, but it is great to see none-the-less. I loved the 2006 weather summarys they had on One, just before Christmas, you wouldn't get that in Perth, though 2006 wasn't exactly a year we would want to remember, with it being our driest ever on record.
I'm not a complainer - I usually stick up for Wellington (mostly on the basis that many other NZ climates are overrated in my judgement), but that was a bridge too far this season. As I indicated, it was a grotesque contrast to the previous year - Aug 2005 thru' Feb 2006 was low on wind speeds, exceptionally sunny, fairly dry and fairly warm (all on a "compared to averages" basis).
Starting with September, we had our windiest spring in decades, with October also being cold and wet. October coincided nicely with a visit fromm English relatives-in-law. I didn't mind the winter weather despite the high rainfall, as there were many bright sunny days in between, a fact I pointed out at the time. In fact the sunshine from Aug 2005 - July 2006 was a near-record for any 12-month period locally. December was our coldest since about 1914. Any of its milder days were marred by wind.
January has so far been cloudy and very cool. Our newspapers have been full-on in complaint, even distorting facts by saying December was "cloudy" (it wasn't!).
I don't just shoot my mouth off on impressions - I have database and algorithms that calculate a formula for an index based on my own views on the importance of the climate parameters, and I know enough about our recent numbers to know had bad our season(s) have been.
I already stated that we were overdue for some lousy months - the public at large have got so used to better weather that they don't know or remember how awful W'gton has been at times in the past. Summers like 1952-53, 1941-42, 1975-1976, and whole years like 1941, 1953, 1966, 1976, 1977 and 1979 are still good benchmarks.
I do get sick of the many complainers in this town who shut their mouths when the weather is pleasant, then find full voice when it isn't. I wish they would just bugger off forever!! When you hear a New Years' award winner (Consumer Institute guy David? Russell) saying he hated W'gton's climate - while living here for decades - my reaction is "Loser!"
I have a friend and ex-colleague who has been dividing his working time between W'gton and Auckland for at least the last 6 years. It was only later on in 2006 that he said he preferred to be in Aucklands' weather - the other 5, he voted firmly for W'gton.
BTW, I would love Perth's climate - have been there 3 times. I like the sun (more important than the temperature to me).
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RWood
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A couple more thoughts Tim S: on the Aussie Weatherzone forum in an NZ weather thread I was making non-partisan observations when an ex-W'gton type in southern Vic. makes snide comments about Wellington, well off the topic at the time. I gave him both barrels - as if he's living in a climatic paradise!
If you really want to zero in on a complainer, turn your attention to the "Southwesterly Wrangler" (no identification needed!) 
If you really want to zero in on a complainer, turn your attention to the "Southwesterly Wrangler" (no identification needed!)
I knew you weren't a complainer Rwood. It seems you love your city and its climate and I can really see why, its a great place and the climate may be a bit miserable at times, but hey no where's perfect, except Perth. 
It seems we have had similar weather lately (relatively speaking), though you are getting yours around a year later. Our Spring and summer in 05/06 was very cold and we recorded our coolest ever december on 05. We smashed the old record, getting an average max of 23.7C when we average 29.1C. This also came after a very wet winter, well May and June anyway, July somehow managed to be extremely dry.
People complained that we didnt get a summer in 05-06 and I dont blame them, even I who hates complaining about the weather, found myself doing so a few times. Though the thing is most of these people would complain if we did get a summer and we had hot spells of 38C+ for days on end too, just as you said, they only open their mouths when the weathers bad.
Its interesting that the pattern in your Spring/Summer is so similar to ours a year earlier, I wonder if there is any link? My first thought would be no as it is most likely a coincidence, as you said, Wellington was overdue for a few lousy months. Though I wonder if its related to ocean temps and currents, all the oceans are linked via the thermohaline (sp?) conveyor and I would imagine that when one ocean has a cool period this could have a knock on effect further down the line.
Regarding Perth's climate is it great having so much sunshine, but it is always good to see something to break the spell, you can have too much of a good thing, occasionaly.
It seems you love your city and its climate and I can really see why, its a great place and the climate may be a bit miserable at times, but hey no where's perfect, except Perth. It seems we have had similar weather lately (relatively speaking), though you are getting yours around a year later. Our Spring and summer in 05/06 was very cold and we recorded our coolest ever december on 05. We smashed the old record, getting an average max of 23.7C when we average 29.1C. This also came after a very wet winter, well May and June anyway, July somehow managed to be extremely dry.
People complained that we didnt get a summer in 05-06 and I dont blame them, even I who hates complaining about the weather, found myself doing so a few times. Though the thing is most of these people would complain if we did get a summer and we had hot spells of 38C+ for days on end too, just as you said, they only open their mouths when the weathers bad.
Its interesting that the pattern in your Spring/Summer is so similar to ours a year earlier, I wonder if there is any link? My first thought would be no as it is most likely a coincidence, as you said, Wellington was overdue for a few lousy months. Though I wonder if its related to ocean temps and currents, all the oceans are linked via the thermohaline (sp?) conveyor and I would imagine that when one ocean has a cool period this could have a knock on effect further down the line.
Regarding Perth's climate is it great having so much sunshine, but it is always good to see something to break the spell, you can have too much of a good thing, occasionaly.
Well what can I say, thats WZ forums for you, I used to post on there but found some people on there just too much. But I agree, Victoria?! sheesh I would rather live in Antartica!RWood wrote:A couple more thoughts Tim S: on the Aussie Weatherzone forum in an NZ weather thread I was making non-partisan observations when an ex-W'gton type in southern Vic. makes snide comments about Wellington, well off the topic at the time. I gave him both barrels - as if he's living in a climatic paradise!
If you really want to zero in on a complainer, turn your attention to the "Southwesterly Wrangler" (no identification needed!)
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RWood
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Yes, you could do with some rainfall topup with the increasingly drying trend in southwest WA [I see Perth's all-time winter monthly rain records are up around the 475mm, higher than our peak of 386 in Dec 1939!]. But I do like the "Mediterranean pattern".
I think it's just coincidence that this particular El Nino (every one is unique) has clobbered the SW of the North Island in particular. Who knows about ocean currents - it's a slowmoving business in some of the cycles. I must ask NIWA about a paper I saw a few years ago by a retired? Met. guy, Jim Hessell, about a slowmoving wave off the coast of South America, initiated by the massive 1982/3 El Nino, that was supposed to affect currents and SSTs near NZ - warming anomalously around 1998 (that happened in that El Nino of 1997-8 ) and cooling things by about now [having taken 24 years to cross the Pacific]. Gulp!! I no longer have the mag. it appeared in.
There's also the matter of the polar vortex - it may being getting regular boosts from GW - I think NIWA have some views on that.
The season here bears some resemblance to 1941/42 - a very poor summer for most - but is quite different in other ways.
I think it's just coincidence that this particular El Nino (every one is unique) has clobbered the SW of the North Island in particular. Who knows about ocean currents - it's a slowmoving business in some of the cycles. I must ask NIWA about a paper I saw a few years ago by a retired? Met. guy, Jim Hessell, about a slowmoving wave off the coast of South America, initiated by the massive 1982/3 El Nino, that was supposed to affect currents and SSTs near NZ - warming anomalously around 1998 (that happened in that El Nino of 1997-8 ) and cooling things by about now [having taken 24 years to cross the Pacific]. Gulp!! I no longer have the mag. it appeared in.
There's also the matter of the polar vortex - it may being getting regular boosts from GW - I think NIWA have some views on that.
The season here bears some resemblance to 1941/42 - a very poor summer for most - but is quite different in other ways.
24 years to cross the pacific! wowzers I wouldnt want to be surfing that wave, you would die of old age riding it in! Seriously though that is amazing, the oceans are an amazing being, their behaviour has such a big influence on our climate yet we appear to know relatively little about how it behaves. I mean it wasnt that long ago that we didnt even know how and why the el nino/la nina cycle happens, we still dont fully understand the why component. I imagine that the oceans were very difficult to study though using traditional methods, satelite technology would have made it a lot easier to track sea temps and currents.
Regarding winter in Perth, yes it is very wet from around May to October, almost all our rain falls in these 6 months, which is good but it does leave us very vunerable to slight changes in frontal patterns and the such in the winter months. As was the case this year when the complete failure of strong Long wave trough periods of the SW of Aus during the wetter months led to our driest winter on record. June was extremely dry, with just 24.6mm falling when we average 178mm, the old record was 54.9mm!
Though as you said Perth's rainfall has steadily been on the decline since the early 70's, why I dont know, it could be a natural phenomen or could be related to GW. I have my own theories that relate to the extensive clearing of vegeation around the SW corner reducing transpiration rates but I think that is only part of the picture.
Seriously though that is amazing, the oceans are an amazing being, their behaviour has such a big influence on our climate yet we appear to know relatively little about how it behaves. I mean it wasnt that long ago that we didnt even know how and why the el nino/la nina cycle happens, we still dont fully understand the why component. I imagine that the oceans were very difficult to study though using traditional methods, satelite technology would have made it a lot easier to track sea temps and currents.Regarding winter in Perth, yes it is very wet from around May to October, almost all our rain falls in these 6 months, which is good but it does leave us very vunerable to slight changes in frontal patterns and the such in the winter months. As was the case this year when the complete failure of strong Long wave trough periods of the SW of Aus during the wetter months led to our driest winter on record. June was extremely dry, with just 24.6mm falling when we average 178mm, the old record was 54.9mm!
Though as you said Perth's rainfall has steadily been on the decline since the early 70's, why I dont know, it could be a natural phenomen or could be related to GW. I have my own theories that relate to the extensive clearing of vegeation around the SW corner reducing transpiration rates but I think that is only part of the picture.
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janewaystv
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RWood wrote:Welcome back
To some extent we were a bit overdue for this - even with the very high 1583mm or thereabouts for 2006, rainfall for the 7 years 2000-2006 has averaged about 1190mm, 55 down on the longterm average for the city. And 2005 had record low windiness, so 2006's bad ending in that respect came as a shock.
And at least the annual summaries will show that all 5 main centres had more than their average annual sunshine - in NZ, that's always got to be a plus.
Thanks
.Re complaints about the weather, its been pretty much the same for Sydney - lots of articles in the papers deploring the absence of good summer weather especially for December 2006, with many cloudy days and cooler temperatures. The sunshine total for Dec. 2006 was only 214 hrs, (7th cloudiest Dec. on record for the Airport) and well down on Dec's 2005 total of 322 hrs (Sunniest ever Dec.)
The mean max of 24.2oC was 1.3oC below avge (25.5oC) and the lowest since 1999 (23.6oC)and mean min of 17.6oC was 0.5oC below avge (18.1oC) and the lowest since 1996 (17.1oC). Dec. 2006 has gone down as the coolest Dec. of the 21st century. (Thats something we have in common - Dec. temps below avge
)Rainfall was average (74mm) falling on 12 days and it was also a very windy month. Humidity didnt occur on many days and not oppressive at all.
January 2006 - I only got back 2 days ago, plenty of sunshine so far, but still remaining windy and cool, also lack of humidity so far has been noticeable. Sea temps are around the 16oC - 18oC mark, 2 people went swimming at Bondi Beach and they got hypothermia !!!
2006 had 994mm of rain, making this the 5th consecutive year of below average rainfall, but well up on last years' total of 816mm and around equal with 2004 (995mm). Rain fell on 136 days - the best since 1999 (169 rain-days), last year's RD total was only 106. April recorded only 9mm (118mm below avge), (5th driest on record) and lowest since 1997 (5.2mm).
January (121mm), June (176mm), July (140mm), August (86mm), September (192mm) and Dec (74mm) were the only months to have average (Aug and Dec) to well above average rainfalls with September recieving 2.5 x the average.
Sunshine was exactly average with 2628 hrs, and well down on 2005's total of 2812 hrs. Sunniest April ever with 279 hrs, beating the old record of 255 hrs set in 1980. May also had well above sunshine (223 hrs to 193 hrs)). Below avge sunshine was recorded during Jan, Mar, Jun, Jul and December with January and December recording the largest negative departures from normal. All other months were average.
(NZ recorded far more sunshine than we did for Dec. 2006).
Just for the record, not to brag (well maybe a little ), Perth had 367.1hrs of sunshine for December, the record is 369hrs so almost the sunniest December on record.
Also for 2006 our total sunshine hours was 3277.2hrs, at an average of just under 9hrs/day!
that amazed me actually. the record is 9.1hrs/day (or 3321hrs) so almost the sunniest year too.
Dont know if you know of this site janewaystv: http://www.marine.csiro.au/~lband/web_point/ it shows how cool the pacific is near you guys, you can also see the cool shallow water just of the coast that you were talking about.
), Perth had 367.1hrs of sunshine for December, the record is 369hrs so almost the sunniest December on record.Also for 2006 our total sunshine hours was 3277.2hrs, at an average of just under 9hrs/day!
that amazed me actually. the record is 9.1hrs/day (or 3321hrs) so almost the sunniest year too.Dont know if you know of this site janewaystv: http://www.marine.csiro.au/~lband/web_point/ it shows how cool the pacific is near you guys, you can also see the cool shallow water just of the coast that you were talking about.
