Winds gusting to hurricane force?

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Cook
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Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Cook »

Since the term gusts of this or that force comes up from time to time I would like to clarify something.

One this page http://www.weatherwatch.co.nz/newstalk you can find the following.

"Mr Duncan says severe winds are again likely across the eastern Waikato. "There is the potential for gusts to reach hurricane force again"

I would like to point out the the term hurricane force comes from the Beaufort scale.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/education/s ... ufort.html

"Hitherto, Force 12 (Hurricane) had been the highest point on the scale, referring to a sustained wind speed of 64 knots (32.7 m/s) or more - that is, the wind speed averaged over a period of 10 minutes."

Please do not misuse this great system for describing wind strength by talking about gusts reaching some force, such as hurricane on the Beaufort scale. Hurricane force is a SUSTAINED wind speed of 64 knots or more over a period of 10 minutes. (Sustained winds of that speed could easily contain gusts of 80 to 100 knots or 150 to 180 km/h)

The Beaufort scale refers to sustained wind, not gusts.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Vertigo »

yes, weve already talked about this and similar topics in various threads. the concensus is that we agree with you completely. weather is a science, and as such should be portrayed as such, and not dumbed down and hyped up, as peoples lives could be in real threat because of it.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Nev »

Yep, I think you may be selling coals to Newcastle here.

Perhaps you should email Philip Duncan's blog directly?
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Cook »

You make a very good point in your post Vertigo, thank you.
I am new here and I didn't realize how enlightened this forum is.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Vertigo »

:lol: i dont know about enlightened, were just very grumpy and need something to bitch about :crazy:
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by 03Stormchaser »

"..gusts to reach hurricane force again"
While probably not quite the right term to use, its no worst than metservice use of the term 'mini tornado' !!
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by NZstorm »

its no worst than metservice use of the term 'mini tornado' !
I thinks its just the media who are using it Stephen. Just for interest it has its origins in the UK media and some how it found its way to Australia and NZ.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Nev »

NZstorm wrote:
its no worst than metservice use of the term 'mini tornado' !
I thinks its just the media who are using it Stephen...
Apparently not! In this instance, without confirmed evidence of a real tornado, it may have been used to to describe the swirling of winds (or whirlwind) created by the interaction with surface obstacles.
:?:
Here it is again...
The MetService said the twister could be classified as a mini-tornado because it was not as large as a full-scale tornado, and had been generated by strong wind off the coast.
Last edited by Nev on Thu 31/07/2008 17:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Inny Binny »

Although mini-tornado is a bit of a silly term, I really fail to see the problem with calling gusts to hurricane force.

It certainly wouldn't cause any detriment by doing so, anyway.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by NZstorm »

I really fail to see the problem with calling gusts to hurricane force.
If you mention the word hurricane in a weather forecast people start thinking hurricane. A gust to 64kts is vastly different to a hurricane force wind. There is no such thing as gusting hurricane force.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by 03Stormchaser »

NZstorm wrote:
its no worst than metservice use of the term 'mini tornado' !
I thinks its just the media who are using it Stephen. Just for interest it has its origins in the UK media and some how it found its way to Australia and NZ.
As Nev quoted:
The MetService said the twister could be classified as a mini-tornado because it was not as large as a full-scale tornado, and had been generated by strong wind off the coast
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by NZ Thunderstorm Soc »

I might make up a term for tornados, courtesy of the NZ Thunderstorm society

How about - and wait for it ------

a

......small tornado :fail: :skull: :skull: :ffs: :devil: }8D :drool: :twisted: :banghead: :o :lol: 8o :B

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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Ryan Thomas »

"small" sounds better then mini, always thought they should be called small not mini
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Nev »

:lol: :mrgreen: :lol: John, you usually bring a smile to my dial.

For more practical purposes, this is how the original Fujita Scale was categorised:

* F0: Gale
* F1: Weak Tornado
* F2: Strong Tornado
* F3: Severe Tornado
* F4: Devastating Tornado
* F5: Incredible Tornado
(F-numbers 6 to 12 were characterised as inconceivable in nature and remained only as the link between F5 and Mach 1.)
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by TonyT »

NZ Thunderstorm Soc wrote:I might make up a term for tornados, courtesy of the NZ Thunderstorm society

How about - and wait for it ------

a

......small tornado :fail: :skull: :skull: :ffs: :devil: }8D :drool: :twisted: :banghead: :o :lol: 8o :B

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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Paul Mallinson »

NZ Thunderstorm Soc wrote:I might make up a term for tornados, courtesy of the NZ Thunderstorm society

How about - and wait for it ------

a

......small tornado :fail: :skull: :skull: :ffs: :devil: }8D :drool: :twisted: :banghead: :o :lol: 8o :B

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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by NZstorm »

I guess so long as the word tornado is used its not such a big deal how its described. >_< o_O
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Nev »

NZstorm wrote:I guess so long as the word tornado is used its not such a big deal how its described. >_< o_O
I disagree. When the media prefixes the word 'tornado' with 'mini', not only does it seem to demean a tornado, but it also suggests that NZ doesn't actually get 'real' tornadoes, even if they are mostly only F0-F2.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Paul Mallinson »

I detest this term "mini" tornado too! Small or perhaps weak would be better.

It's interesting actually that we have now had a couple of cases recently where there really wasn't any embedded thunderstorms (but not to say there wasn't some embedded convection) in which some weak tornados were reported - the previous one was about a week ago - would have to look it up. Anyway, in these cases there was lots of wind shear - especially in the surface to 2 kilometre layer (over 25kts) which lead to quite high storm relative helicities (the previous case being about minus 350 (I forget the units!). So it would seem that in the presence of only modest ascent but very strong shear in the vicinity of the front we can still get these weak vortices forming which can do a little damage.

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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Nev »

Thought this inspiring little snippet from Australia's ABC might also be worth a mention ...
ABC PUBLIC REPORT ON AUDIENCE COMMENTS AND COMPLAINTS, OCTOBER – DECEMBER 2007
[Page 13]

7.00 News – 27 October 2007
The complaint

Two audience members complained about use of the term “mini tornado” to describe severe weather conditions in Dunoon. Both pointed out that there is no such thing as a “mini tornado”; there are just tornados of different intensity.

Findings

The ABC agreed and undertook to remind staff.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Philip Duncan »

According to the beaufort scale "Hurricane force" is a sustained wind of 120km/h +. This is equivalent to a Category 1 Atlantic Hurricane. American's also use the term "gusting to hurricane force" and they measure that as a gust lasting 1 minute.

This is a scientific description of winds at that speed: Considerable and widespread damage to vegetation, a few windows broken, structural damage to mobile homes and poorly constructed sheds and barns.

I have been to Te Aroha today and almost every property has an uprooted tree (some over 100 years old) fences flattened, barns flattened, powerpoles snapped in half (concrete ones). I do NOT use the term hurricane force loosely and the town saw it's worst winds in over 30 years. I stand by our use of that word. The winds were EASILY sustained at over 160km/h to 180km/h for 10 minutes at a time according to the damage and speaking to locals.

And all your complaining about the use of the term "mini tornado"...I'm sure that if the "media' started saying there were tornados moving through Auckland you would all be up and arms because they don't rate on the Fujita scale and we would be seen as scare mongering...surely it's more accurate for MetService (and the media) to point out that these twisters are "small or weak".

Ok...free for all...
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by 03Stormchaser »

How does a tornado not rate on the Fujita scale? I thought that a weak tornado would rate as a F0. So calling it a 'weak tornado' would be a good idea. And why doesnt metservice use the Fujita scale when talking about tornadoes to the media?? instead of calling them weak or mini.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by NZstorm »

they don't rate on the Fujita scale
The Fujita scale is basically redundant now, its the Enhanced Fujita scale, so we should make the conversion. New Zealand tornadoes are usually EF0 to EF1, rarely EF2 and very rarely EF3.
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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by NZ Thunderstorm Soc »

NZstorm wrote:
The Fujita scale is basically redundant now, its the Enhanced Fujita scale, so we should make the conversion. New Zealand tornadoes are usually EF0 to EF1, rarely EF2 and very rarely EF3.
Yes, I thought that the 'Fred' Scale had been updated. i don't have a copy of it, however. :(

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Re: Winds gusting to hurricane force?

Unread post by Nev »

philip duncan wrote:... And all your complaining about the use of the term "mini tornado"...I'm sure that if the "media' started saying there were tornados moving through Auckland you would all be up and arms because they don't rate on the Fujita scale and we would be seen as scare mongering...surely it's more accurate for MetService (and the media) to point out that these twisters are "small or weak". ...
I'm not suggesting the media designate F-ratings to tornadoes (impossible to do until after a post-scene examination anyway). I'm simply against the prefix 'mini' for reasons already stated. Nothing wrong with 'small' or 'weak' though, as most of our tornadoes usually are F0 or F1, and it would probably be fairly obvious if they did happen to be stronger than that.
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