The great Foehn debate

[joecam]

TVNZ's weather person tonight at 18:30 pointed out the high in Hokitika of 17 today, was due to the "fern" effect. Must be all that lush greenery over there! <groan......>

[RWood]

TVNZ's weather person tonight at 18:30 pointed out the high in Hokitika of 17 today, was due to the "fern" effect. Must be all that lush greenery over there! <groan......>

The correct pronunciation of "foehn" (or "fohn with 2 periods over the o) does sound like "fern" - origin is German alpine.

[joecam]

Thanks Ron I realise they sound the same but she did say Fern. Obviously spelt that way on her in her autocue. I was just bagging their "Quality control"................

[Myself]

Thanks Ron I realise they sound the same but she did say Fern. Obviously spelt that way on her in her autocue. I was just bagging their "Quality control"................

......?

If they sound the same, how do you know that she said "fern"?

Also, if the scripts are sent to them by Metservice, surely it would be spelled properly anyway?

[joecam]

RWOOD
I'm not going to get into an argument over such a little thing. I am merely just stating what I heard and what I recorded and played back and listened to (on several occasions) She said "FERN" wind.
In that case if what you say is so and I have no reason to doubt that at all, metservice sent them the script she clearly read it wrong then. Case closed.
Joe

[Philip Duncan]

lol

[Myself]

RWOOD
I'm not going to get into an argument over such a little thing. I am merely just stating what I heard and what I recorded and played back and listened to (on several occasions) She said "FERN" wind.
In that case if what you say is so and I have no reason to doubt that at all, metservice sent them the script she clearly read it wrong then. Case closed.
Joe

If the pronunciation of "foehn" is pretty much identical to "fern" then HOW do you know she said "fern" and NOT "foehn"?

[RWood]

I didn't realise this was an "argument", merely pointed out something which made matters unclear. 'Bye!

[Nev]

Actually I think the little föhn/foehn debate is quite interesting (albeit slightly OT), as there does appears to be some variation on its pronunciation. My Oxford English Dictionary has it pronounced as fern, but perhaps local accents should also be taken into account.

Have a listen to these audio pronunciations, particularly this one from Merriam-Webster, and then there's The Free Dictionary and Dictionary.com.

[joecam]

Myself,
I can start an english pronnunciation thread if you wish. But I think its a wee bit off topic here.........Case closed eh?

[joecam]

Just to set the record straight I made a quip about the pronnunciation of "Foehn" there is debate whether it is pronnounced FERN or FON. I can confirm according to my ears that the weather person on TVNZ On the weekend said FERN.
Apparently that is the correct way to say it. In fact the word may be correct said either way. However with the kiwi dialect you would normally hear it as Fon. Because people read the O and put it in accordingly I suppose.
Over on the other channel (tv3)they pronnounce it as that.
As an aviator my navigation course also told me to pronnounce it as Fon.
As Nev has suggested local dialect can have an effect on the way it is said.
What suggest to me she is wrong is my above explaination, and her stumble as she reads the autocue just before she says........fern.....wind.

Anyway theres my argument and I may seem obnoxious about this but with my daily occupation, I am discussing pronnunciation with journalists. The journalist I next work with who has that in his or her script will also pronnounce it as FON when I am directing/producing. I might add though that the NZ dialect is continously evolving.
My two and 1/2 cents worth.

[Dale]

Interesting..

In all my years of study & weather related activitys.. have always pronounced it as "fone" as in telefone.. (phone for the grammar nazi's) but that might just be my being raised and living all my life in Aussie, each state having their own different accents & dialects so im a combination of them all.. a kiwi through & through, just with an aussie accent

[TonyT]

I'm with 'fern'. Any German speakers on the forum?

[joecam]

Onvelope or Envolope
Yes this could be interesting if you and I work together again Tony
Has the occasion to say the 'F" word come up yet on the C Channel If so what did you call it! We are in NZ and not Germany I might point out

[TonyT]

Has the occasion to say the 'F" word come up yet on the C Channel

Ahem!

I pronounce 'foehn' as 'fern'. Thats all there is to it really. I take your point about not being in Germany, but since the 'oeh' cluster is a non-native english vowel sound, we really have two choices - try to emulate the original, or substitute with a vowel sound we do have in New Zealand English. Since the word is relatively uncommon (being a specialised meteorological term) and relatively newly borrowed into English from German (I would think within the last 100 years) then I guess there is no accepted NZE pronounciation for it yet (hence this debate).

[Lacertae]

In France we pronounce "fo-uhn" with the "uh" being a french "e".
Hard to explain with words ... I guess it's a mix between the "fern" and "fone" pronounciation ...

[gllitz]

Yes, but pronunciation is EXTREMELY important...it shows a sense of understanding and even respect for other languages. We are all (most of us, anyway...sorry Ben!) native English speakers, but we all have different accents, is all...BUT, when it comes to pronouncing a word that has no English equivalent, we SHOULD go out of our way to pronounce it as best as possible and the way it is done in the original language...otherwise you sound lazy and dare I say, ignorant.

As a side not, a good example of this is MAZDA...it makes me CRINGE when I hear Kiwis mispronounce this Japanese name and say "MAAAAA ZDA"...the japanese is "MAH DZU DA, " made up of 3 separate syllables, not 2...and the MAH part is NOT a flat A sound, but rhymes with "say AH" that the doctor tells you...the point is: show some respect, people!

(yes, I speak Japanese...studied it for 63 weeks, at 5 days a week, for 8 hours a day...then lived in Japan for 4 years...so I have a wee bit of credibility there....if only I can get rid of the American accent?!? )

[TonyT]

Yes, but pronunciation is EXTREMELY important...it shows a sense of understanding and even respect for other languages. We are all (most of us, anyway...sorry Ben!) native English speakers, but we all have different accents, is all...BUT, when it comes to pronouncing a word that has no English equivalent, we SHOULD go out of our way to pronounce it as best as possible and the way it is done in the original language...otherwise you sound lazy and dare I say, ignorant.

Yes, but in your accent is the French capital PAR ISS or PAR REE? Is the sausage in your frankfurter a BRAT WURST or BRAT VERST?

The reality is that when a word is borrowed into English, once it becomes used often enough it takes on an anglicised pronounication. Thats not lazy, not disrespectful, not ignorant, its the process of language change. You can be sure there are plenty of words which originated in English and are now used in French or German or Japanese and which have a local pronounciation.

The issue with the word 'foehn' is not really how it is pronounced in German (although knowing that may help us with the next bit) but having the word used often enough in NZE to get a commonly accepted usage, so people feel comfortable pronouncing it the way "most people do".

[gllitz]

Point taken, Tony, on the anglicised versions of words...BUT, should people go the OTHER way and attempt to learn other languages or even talk to a native speaker about the anglicised version of their word, they need to make EVERY EFFORT to ensure their pronunciation is spot-on...otherwise leads to confusion/laziness/ignorance I was talking about...

[Inny Binny]

Foehn is essentially föhn, which is pronounced with a ø, which as far as I can tell is prounounced very similiar to 'er'.

(it is used in the french word bœufs which is pronounced similiar to 'fern', but with a slightly more 'o' sound I think)

Case closed.

[carrot]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=föhn&db=luna (cut & paste)
Click the small speaker to hear it the pronunciation beside the words.

That site has two ways to pronounce it,
One rhyming with vein , and the other a more foreign sounding fern, but with an "o" sound in it.

[waterboy]

Its almost always been called 'fern' down here. And the only people who say 'fone' I have ever heard are usually from the citys. When I was at school even it was called 'fern' but you would think the little dot things would be a give away that it is said different to how its spelt!

[sthguy]

f *wh* oehn

Michael Lhaws would know