"Lightning radars" and what-not...
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For today's weather discussion head to: New Zealand Weather & Climate
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For today's weather discussion head to: New Zealand Weather & Climate
- gllitz
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"Lightning radars" and what-not...
1. I wasn't even aware that such a device even existed...I believe it's been posted on this forum as well...RAdio Detection And Ranging...my understanding is that there are active electromagnetic waves sent out and the radar recevier gets the "bounce-back" signals...The Bolteks in place are DETECTORS (i.e. PASSIVE, and not actively sending out signals...) I would almost go so far as to say there is no such thing as a "lightning radar" and you should probably rename it on your site...
2. The "lightning radar" (as opposed to "lightning detector") on the weatherwatch site:
"Since midnight last night almost 4400 lightning strikes have been detected by the Weather Watch Centre's lightning radar, most occurring out in the Tasman Sea."
Philip, you DO give credit to http://www.skywatcher.net.nz/index.html (but not until people actually click on it...what about all the others that contribute to the network??)...so, I find it a bit misleading from your site...it almost sounds as though on the front page of your site that it is YOUR "lighning radar" doing all the detecting/tracking/etc...
3. Also, with these numbers you are quoting (4400 odd)...REALLY??
Astrogenic website shows only about 290 or so...perhaps there HAVE BEEN 4400+ and that would mean the Astrogenic site is waaaaaay off.... Can you clarify where you get the numbers from? Thanks...
This is NOT intended as a witch-hunt, btw...I just think the Weather Watch web site needs to be a little more careful and pragmatic in its wording and its presentation of lightning-related information.
(For those interested there's a good discussion on the Astrogenic/NZ Boltek detectors here: http://www.weatherforum.org.nz/phpBB3/v ... 48&p=23808)
2. The "lightning radar" (as opposed to "lightning detector") on the weatherwatch site:
"Since midnight last night almost 4400 lightning strikes have been detected by the Weather Watch Centre's lightning radar, most occurring out in the Tasman Sea."
Philip, you DO give credit to http://www.skywatcher.net.nz/index.html (but not until people actually click on it...what about all the others that contribute to the network??)...so, I find it a bit misleading from your site...it almost sounds as though on the front page of your site that it is YOUR "lighning radar" doing all the detecting/tracking/etc...
3. Also, with these numbers you are quoting (4400 odd)...REALLY??
Astrogenic website shows only about 290 or so...perhaps there HAVE BEEN 4400+ and that would mean the Astrogenic site is waaaaaay off.... Can you clarify where you get the numbers from? Thanks...
This is NOT intended as a witch-hunt, btw...I just think the Weather Watch web site needs to be a little more careful and pragmatic in its wording and its presentation of lightning-related information.
(For those interested there's a good discussion on the Astrogenic/NZ Boltek detectors here: http://www.weatherforum.org.nz/phpBB3/v ... 48&p=23808)
"Saru mo ki kara ochiru"
- Nev
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
The terminology was discussed in the 'Lightning activity in thunderstorms' thread last week.
- gllitz
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
Good catch, Nev...
...then my points #2 and #3 still stand unanswered.......
(...and I STILL think the web site should NOT refer to them as Lightning Radars...almost as bad as the m*** word...)
...then my points #2 and #3 still stand unanswered.......
(...and I STILL think the web site should NOT refer to them as Lightning Radars...almost as bad as the m*** word...)
"Saru mo ki kara ochiru"
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
note that he references the combined strikes, which is different to the correlated (better) strikes that the strike star site uses
Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
Phil Duncan says himself his site is not meant to be scientific. So getting him to change the wording is unlikely to happen. I do see a discrepancy with his claims that a) the public should not be treated like they are stupid (http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/weathe ... id=1501977 - "Those that actually care about a weather forecast are usually intelligent enough to work out what's accurate") and b) lack of scientific detail on his website, glossing over some areas and treating some things as minor details, when they are, in fact very important.gllitz wrote:...
Two cases in point: Commentators pointed out to him errors such as him claiming that overnight minima occur just before sunrise, when under the weather situation at that time (surface inversion) they actually happen just after sunrise. A key point. Another was where he referred to the sub-tropical jet stream as the "tropical jet stream". His response was that it was irrelevant and it would just confuse the public to be more specific. This is at odds with his earlier claims.
Unfortunately I don't see an end to this in the future and we may just have to grin and bear it. Meteorology is science, regardless of whether you think "forecasting" is art or science, and I believe we should stick with informed views from the scientists.
I also find it concerning that he does not even really know what "wind shear" is. It is a change of wind direction OR speed with height.
http://www.weatherwatch.co.nz/content/w ... ing?page=1
"Warm water, little wind shear (strong winds above going the opposite way to cut the growth of clouds etc) are helping making this storm grow...plus it's moving fast in the sub-tropical jet stream - a conveyer belt from the Coral Sea to northern NZ."
A jet stream is an area of very strong shear. The storm could not simultaneously be in an area of "little wind shear" AND the "sub-tropical jet stream". That's impossible.
I find such errors worrying. And often they are blamed on "it's a long day", but that just doesn't fly all the time!
I could be picky and point out that a conveyor belt is not a jet-stream, it is something different.
It also seems that when things don't go his way, or when he's out of his league, he claims arguments are irrelevant. A key issue is the distinction between "cyclones" and "tropical cyclones". He claimed these arguments were "pedantic". Now I introduced him to this word in a post I made here, and over the next week he used it almost everywhere. I am glad to be of service. But seriously, it's a very real issue. People have to be careful when talking to the public. It really *is* a case of "say something enough times and everyone will think it is the truth".
I have no issue in principle with lack of knowledge. Who knows everything about the weather? No one. But I don't believe he should be in the position that he is in. It *could* be bad for the public.
Really if you are going to be in the position of educating or informing the public about the weather you have to have some form of formal education in meteorology. Meteorology is physics....simple fact. You don't see laymen setting up websites about particle accelerators and predicting what will happen in the next collision. But somehow the weather is fair game.
In terms of the man himself, I think he comes across as great on TV and radio. He has an easy going style and seems pretty genial....my beef is with the things that he says/writes.
Unfortunately this thread or post may not last long given that there appears to be an unwritten rule here that you may not criticise anyone other than Metservice. Personally I think they do a damn good job despite being hounded and bitched at constantly......although I'd prefer for them to be more "vocal" and "pro-active" with the public...but that's not really their mandate I guess. .
For those who dissent my opinion, I leave you with the words of Mr Duncan himself:
I'm right....get over it.
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
all good points
(also , to my knowledge, wind shear (verticly), helps a CB grow, by constantly removing the warm air that is rising (like a chimney in the wind effect))
(also , to my knowledge, wind shear (verticly), helps a CB grow, by constantly removing the warm air that is rising (like a chimney in the wind effect))
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
I would like to respond a number of concerns about certain aspects of the Weatherwatch team.
I am part of the Weatherwatch staff and have worked with Philip Duncan over the past year or so, in setting the site up.
The intention of the site is to provide a weather news service to New Zealand. It is updated 2,3 or 4 times a day and is there for readers/viewers to be informed. I have noticed on this site on a number of occasions about certain terms/phrases etc as being somewhat inaccurate to some members.
Philip and I are not meteorolgists and do not claim to be. I have been, and am a weather presenter on radio and tv and have some knowledge but I'm still learning all the time. Philip has a passion for the weather, particularly extreme weather and is also learning as much as he can and even though our work is in such a public domain, of course we are going to make mistakes.There will be some bumps along the way.
I am asking for a little time to work on our faults- not too be hung, drawn and quartered for any possible wrong doings in some peoples eyes. I am the first one to say ' I got it wrong ' and hopefully learn from it and move on.
We are not scientists but analysts and we have an extroverted passion that works well to deliver information from the media aspect, to the public at large.It is not our intention to misinform the public and we are in the process of doing the best we can, however we are in a very public situation and are vulnerable too.
We're well aware of that and if an apology is required, I am prepared to say sorry and also, please give us a moment to absorb, listen and right any possible wrongs.
I am the first to admit that we are not perfect and haven't claimed to be, however I feel it's important that we are to remind some folk that we are human beings and have feelings too and that the kiwi clobbering machine is at times in full swing!
We do not need to justify to anybody why and what we do necessarily but I feel it's important for you to know what it's like on this side of the ' wall '.
I really enjoy this site and it reignited my ' love ' for the weather a few years ago and I'm not about to let that go lightly.
We are all passionate about the weather (scientists, weather buffs, meteorologists etc) and how about helping each other out and working collectively on how best to inform the public, instead of the negativity that is tiresome and fruitless.
Sometimes matters of the heart are just as important as the head.
Thank you for reading.
Weather analyst at Weatherwatch
Richard Green
I am part of the Weatherwatch staff and have worked with Philip Duncan over the past year or so, in setting the site up.
The intention of the site is to provide a weather news service to New Zealand. It is updated 2,3 or 4 times a day and is there for readers/viewers to be informed. I have noticed on this site on a number of occasions about certain terms/phrases etc as being somewhat inaccurate to some members.
Philip and I are not meteorolgists and do not claim to be. I have been, and am a weather presenter on radio and tv and have some knowledge but I'm still learning all the time. Philip has a passion for the weather, particularly extreme weather and is also learning as much as he can and even though our work is in such a public domain, of course we are going to make mistakes.There will be some bumps along the way.
I am asking for a little time to work on our faults- not too be hung, drawn and quartered for any possible wrong doings in some peoples eyes. I am the first one to say ' I got it wrong ' and hopefully learn from it and move on.
We are not scientists but analysts and we have an extroverted passion that works well to deliver information from the media aspect, to the public at large.It is not our intention to misinform the public and we are in the process of doing the best we can, however we are in a very public situation and are vulnerable too.
We're well aware of that and if an apology is required, I am prepared to say sorry and also, please give us a moment to absorb, listen and right any possible wrongs.
I am the first to admit that we are not perfect and haven't claimed to be, however I feel it's important that we are to remind some folk that we are human beings and have feelings too and that the kiwi clobbering machine is at times in full swing!
We do not need to justify to anybody why and what we do necessarily but I feel it's important for you to know what it's like on this side of the ' wall '.
I really enjoy this site and it reignited my ' love ' for the weather a few years ago and I'm not about to let that go lightly.
We are all passionate about the weather (scientists, weather buffs, meteorologists etc) and how about helping each other out and working collectively on how best to inform the public, instead of the negativity that is tiresome and fruitless.
Sometimes matters of the heart are just as important as the head.
Thank you for reading.
Weather analyst at Weatherwatch
Richard Green
Last edited by Weathermad on Thu 14/08/2008 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
I think if you keep taking on board the constructive critiscms (ignore anything that is not constructive)
and keep on improving,and learning,and fine tuning, then you can only get better and better at what you are doing
I think the above posting had some good points, (OK I should not have said all good points, there were some I did not agree with, my bad) and if you guys can take those on board, and keep on making improvements, then you will get less people complain and instead get people saying well done...
yes, its the good ol kiwi combering machine , and I must try and not be a part of that too, LOL
almost whats needed is some peer review of your new postings...i.e pass them off to someone else for review/suggestions, before posting them maybe?
(just an idea,may not be practical)
because you guys have the public hearing/reading what you post, then will need to strive to get that info as good and accurate (meterologicly speaking) as possible...not an easy task....
chin up!
and keep on improving,and learning,and fine tuning, then you can only get better and better at what you are doing
I think the above posting had some good points, (OK I should not have said all good points, there were some I did not agree with, my bad) and if you guys can take those on board, and keep on making improvements, then you will get less people complain and instead get people saying well done...
yes, its the good ol kiwi combering machine , and I must try and not be a part of that too, LOL
almost whats needed is some peer review of your new postings...i.e pass them off to someone else for review/suggestions, before posting them maybe?
(just an idea,may not be practical)
because you guys have the public hearing/reading what you post, then will need to strive to get that info as good and accurate (meterologicly speaking) as possible...not an easy task....
chin up!
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
I think you guys do a good job - I know my workmates look at the WeatherWatch site and talk about it. If it gets people interested then it is doing a good job. Even resources like wikipedia don't have everything right
Keep it up!
G
Keep it up!
G
Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
If I clobbered, I wanted to be as specific as possible about my clobbering.
"We are all passionate about the weather (scientists, weather buffs, meteorologists etc) and how about helping each other out and working collectively on how best to inform the public, instead of the negativity that is tiresome and fruitless.
Sometimes matters of the heart are just as important as the head."
Can't really argue with that.
I agree you are in a vulnerable position....you are going to get bashed. Sometimes it's for the best, sometimes not. I will not make a post like that again, I do realise you are in it for the best, you really do love what you do and it's great to see excitement over the weather.
I stand by my technical points, but should have stuck more to those and kept it as impersonal as possible. So I apologise for what I said there. I cannot complain about Philip getting grumpy when an argument goes against him....only for me to make a grumpy post myself. That's pretty hypocritical of me.
My passion got the best of my manners, I have to keep this in check in future as I've been too guilty of it recently (I think I had some posts deleted ), and must remember to act a gentleman.
I really do think raising the profile of the weather in NZ is very good thing, which is what weatherwatch does. But yes, I still believe it has to be as correct as possible.
"We are all passionate about the weather (scientists, weather buffs, meteorologists etc) and how about helping each other out and working collectively on how best to inform the public, instead of the negativity that is tiresome and fruitless.
Sometimes matters of the heart are just as important as the head."
Can't really argue with that.
I agree you are in a vulnerable position....you are going to get bashed. Sometimes it's for the best, sometimes not. I will not make a post like that again, I do realise you are in it for the best, you really do love what you do and it's great to see excitement over the weather.
I stand by my technical points, but should have stuck more to those and kept it as impersonal as possible. So I apologise for what I said there. I cannot complain about Philip getting grumpy when an argument goes against him....only for me to make a grumpy post myself. That's pretty hypocritical of me.
My passion got the best of my manners, I have to keep this in check in future as I've been too guilty of it recently (I think I had some posts deleted ), and must remember to act a gentleman.
I really do think raising the profile of the weather in NZ is very good thing, which is what weatherwatch does. But yes, I still believe it has to be as correct as possible.
- Vertigo
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
yes, if you weatherwatch guys actually listen to the members here, and not just shrug us off, we wouldnt have a problem. we dont want to tell you how to run your site really, we are just concerned with the way its being presented. yes, weather for the masses is an admirable thing, but it needs to be consistant, and that means being consistant with every other weather service. do that, and youll do just fine.
edit: wasnt supposed to sound as bitchy as it came across. sorry
edit: wasnt supposed to sound as bitchy as it came across. sorry
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
Points are taken thanks and we appreciate it.
I cannot guarantee that we will be the same as everybody else, as I believe we have our own uniqueness, but we are working towards a similar goal.
If you do have concerns, we'd appreciate it if you'd get in touch on a one to one basis ( by either messaging us through the weather forum or contacing us at Weatherwatch) rather than have an 'all in' discussion on the main board.
We do welcome your feedback and for the record, the response overall has been very positive from our readers and we are endeavouring to improve our service,with your help, if possible.
I cannot guarantee that we will be the same as everybody else, as I believe we have our own uniqueness, but we are working towards a similar goal.
If you do have concerns, we'd appreciate it if you'd get in touch on a one to one basis ( by either messaging us through the weather forum or contacing us at Weatherwatch) rather than have an 'all in' discussion on the main board.
We do welcome your feedback and for the record, the response overall has been very positive from our readers and we are endeavouring to improve our service,with your help, if possible.
- Michael
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
Weatherwatch is an interesting site.I look at it a lot.It has a lot of info the general layman is interested in without too much jargon and bitchiness.All the forums have their place.
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
Hey everyone - have changed the graphic to Lighting Detector. May even change it agan to "Tracker" as it flows off the tongue better.
Thanks for your input!
Thanks for your input!
Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
Just from the point of view of a person that likes this site and enjoys reading what you all have to say, lately at times, (don't hurt me) I have felt like not coming back with all the snappy comments directed at some members. But am glad to see people understanding eachother a little more now as I (along with many other people) love viewing this site to see what everyone's (professional or other) opinions and observations are on the latest weather events
- Vertigo
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Re: "Lightning radars" and what-not...
thanks for that tamazi. sometimes we do get carried away in our heated discussions, although we do try to minimise that i find myself checking my posts against the guidelines quite often when something like this comes up. i think we all prefer nice, calm discussions on interesting weather events, but we also strive to be accurate!