Hadron Collider test in Switzerland tomorrow

[RODALCO]

Just heard this news at work, and it sounded like gobbledegook to me.

It appears that the Swiss are doing and other experiment to create mini black holes in the Hadron Collider machine in Switzerland in the next one or two days.

Anyone was aware of this test.

Attached are two links i found on Google, hope they work

Regards, Raymond

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/lo ... 67982.aspx

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_The_LHC_ ... 23962.html

[gllitz]

Yup, have known about this for sometime...I am pretty sure they are just turning it on tomorrow, but not actually doing any testing til later on next month...Cool stuff for physics nerds, but to the rest of us, no biggie...you can Google and research all you want on your own to find out what it's for...there's even a really well done rap song on YouTube about it ...the odds of this thing ending the world are pretty small (infinitesimally small)...so don't panic!

Does kinda remind me of that one Star Trek Voyager episode, though, where Voyager got stuck outside a planet in some kind of space-time anamoly and watched a civilisation developing..."Whoops, there it is...they just had a play with technology they shouldn't have been playing with" as half a continent gets wiped out.....

[Nev]

I think the 'Large Hadron Collider' actually gets revved-up tonight from about 7pm to 10pm our time.

Yes, there's been a few docos made about it and it was also in the news last year after a few math-mistakes led to an explosion! 8o ...From The Sunday Times (UK):

'Big Bang at the atomic lab after scientists get their maths wrong'
April 8, 2007, by Jonathan Leake, Science Editor

A £2 billion project to answer some of the biggest mysteries of the universe has been delayed by months after scientists building it made basic errors in their mathematical calculations. The mistakes led to an explosion deep in the tunnel at the Cern particle accelerator complex near Geneva in Switzerland. It lifted a 20-ton magnet off its mountings, filling a tunnel with helium gas and forcing an evacuation. (more) ...

Also some good background info about the LHC from the Max Planck Society in Munich.

[Inny Binny]

This has been everywhere (and I've benn looking at it for a while), and this is something that the media have really got wrong.

Doomsday device?

Good grief.

I think the 'Large Hadron Collider' actually gets revved-up tonight from about 7pm to 10pm our time.

The first beams to be fully circulated are tonight - 6:30pm it said in the paper. First collisions aren't until mid-October.

[Vertigo]

the media isnt really wrong.. they just caught wind of a potential problem, and hyped it up. physics was my major in uni, so ill try to elaborate.

the LHC will be propelling two beams of protons at nearly the speed of light (fantastically fast for particles with mass) in opposite directions, and with a flick of a switch, the beams will collide. this is expected to destroy all the protons, and release a huge amount of energy, in the order of 1TeV (the scientists talk in units of eV - electron volts) in a very small space.

the issue here is that these kinds of particle colliders are getting so big and releasing so much energy in such a small space that there is real concern of creating micro black holes. these black holes can be formed by the super concentration of energy, as well as matter. the scientists are fairly confident that these black holes will evaporate instantly through a process known as Hawking radiation. however, noone really knows if black holes will form, or if Hawking radiation exists (its a good theory that fills some holes, but hasnt been tested), so people have been getting worried and asking questions about the safety of the planet.

the arguement against this is that cosmic rays (basicly, hyper-fast remnants of supernovae) impact our planet every day, sometimes with energies exceeding 1TeV, and seeing as we are still here, either dont produce micro black holes, these black holes radiate into nothing, or black holes form and fly out into space before they suck us in. the last scenario is the most worrying, as this means that if the LHC does produce MBH's, they might be captured by the earths gravity, and start devouring us all. lovely thought.

im undecided on it really. its worrying that a select few can hold so much power over the fate of so many like this, without even consulting us. the LHC may or may not kill us all, but the way we are going, something like this will.

[gllitz]

Well, I hope they all have their crowbars at the ready (for all you Half-Life fans out there!)

[Ryan Thomas]

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who gets the occasional misread of "Hardon Collider"

[Nev]

You guys will love this article from India then...

Doomsayers link Iran quake to 'Big Bang'
11 September 2008, by Somak Sen

It was just after few hours of the LHC experiment of Big Bang when the violent earthquake reading 6.1 on the Richter scale struck southern Iran. Possibly, Lord Shiva's violent dance might have commenced, say doomsayers. (more) ...

(6 fatalities to date, also sky-scapers rocked in Dubai)

There's actually been a spate of above mag 6.0 quakes around the world in the last 2-3 weeks (almost 1 per day as opposed to the 2-3 per week one would normally expect).

[Nev]

Also this ...

Teen suicides over 'Big Bang' fear
07:46 AEST Thu Sep 11 2008
A teenage girl in central India killed herself after being traumatised by media reports that a "Big Bang" experiment in Europe could bring about the end of the world, her father said. ...

[Ryan Thomas]

That girl must of had a mental condition... If it was normal many more people would be killing themselves over fear of "the end of the world"

[Razor]

also Mag 7 earthquakes in Japan and Indonesia today making three big ones since the switch was flicked

hahaha

[David]

Also this ...

Teen suicides over 'Big Bang' fear
07:46 AEST Thu Sep 11 2008
A teenage girl in central India killed herself after being traumatised by media reports that a "Big Bang" experiment in Europe could bring about the end of the world, her father said. ...

I can't see why people are confused that the actual experiment was starting 10th Sep? It has only had a one-directional beam circulated through it yet. High energy collisions aren't expected to take place after 21st Oct. The chances of a micro black hole is there but as Vertigo has explained, extremely small black holes evaporate very fast. Typically media focus on danger despite the minute probability of it happening.

[Inny Binny]

First - about Hawking radiation - it is a theory. One founded in solid and provable quantum theory, of course - but still possibly wrong.

If CERN thought that stable black holes would cause a problem, given the very small chance of the decay theory being wrong - they would not do this experiment, I would think.

However, they have even investigated stable black holes in this safety report:

http://lsag.web.cern.ch/lsag/CERN-PH-TH_2008-025.pdf

So, with the small chance of black holes being created, multipied by the small chance of Hawking radiation failing, multiplied by the extremely small chance that the scenarios presented in the aforementioned document...you might as well say there is pretty much zero chance.

[gllitz]

First - about Hawking radiation - it is a theory. One founded in solid and provable quantum theory, of course - but still possibly wrong.

If CERN thought that stable black holes would cause a problem, given the very small chance of the decay theory being wrong - they would not do this experiment, I would think.

However, they have even investigated stable black holes in this safety report:

http://lsag.web.cern.ch/lsag/CERN-PH-TH_2008-025.pdf

So, with the small chance of black holes being created, multipied by the small chance of Hawking radiation failing, multiplied by the extremely small chance that the scenarios presented in the aforementioned document...you might as well say there is pretty much zero chance.

I love the fact that Stephen Hawking has a $100 bet that they WON'T find what they are looking for! Well, there's 5 billion pounds down the crapper....

[Inny Binny]

^The point of this is to discover something, so whether or not their postulations are correct, or whether there is enough energy to find the Higgs, they will certainly find something.

Dunno what Hawking is thinking with his bet though.

[tgsnoopy]

The sky is falling the sky is falling.... Or something like that.

Frankly I'm bored with hearing about it all the time.

Once upon the time we didn't think it was possible to split the atom... Who's to say what they may find with these experiments.

Fingers crossed the risk isn't a problem.

Hey, maybe they'll find a future source of energy?

[Inny Binny]

I personally believe that a fair way into the future antimatter will be a good energy source. Tens of trillions of dollars per gram at the moment, but that is falling quite fast...

[Ryan Thomas]

If anything goes wrong, Death would be pretty much instant wouldn't it? You wouldn't notice it

[Nev]

That girl must of had a mental condition... If it was normal many more people would be killing themselves over fear of "the end of the world"

When you see some of sensationalist media reporting of this event, this story doesn't surprise me at all, particularly in less developed countries like India. I think the media may have a lot to answer for. Below is a classic example. Although there a are a few balanced comments included, the excerpts below demonstrate the general drift of reporting ...

'Doomsday this week? Large Hadron Collider activated - Meri-News (India)
7 September 2008

THIS WEDNESDAY (September 10), the world will end... There is a secret project which has been built unobtrusively underground, crossing the boundary between Switzerland and France...

Many scientists believe that this may lead to a dangerous situation - a black hole may be created on the earth. It will spell doomsday for earthlings and lead to an unstoppable chain reaction which will create upheavals on earth. If the reaction gets unstoppable this will lead to an unimaginable impact where within two minutes the whole of the earth and the moon will be destroyed and within eight minutes the sun and the whole of the solar system will be destroyed. And within a few minutes the impact will be felt in the Milky Way and the unimaginable impact on neighbouring galaxies will become unavoidable.

People who are scared of this machine or test have their own theory and even scientists are part of this school. They say that as soon as the machine starts it will trigger a chain reaction which is unimaginable and uncontrollable and will spell doom for the very existence of humanity. As soon as this happens, the earth will split, the sea will rise, volcanoes will burst and it will be devastation all over.

The second theory says that a blast, a huge one like the big bang, will finish the whole universe in a few seconds. God, save us; we know you and not the theories.

And the public's general reaction ...

'Girl kills self over "Big Bang" fear - family' - Reuters India
Wed Sep 10, 2008

...For the past two days, many Indian news channels held discussions airing doomsday predictions over a huge particle-smashing machine buried under the Swiss-French border.

...But in India fears about the experiment and the minor risks associated with it spread rapidly through the media. In east India, thousands of people rushed to temples to pray and fast while others savoured their favourite foods in anticipation of the world's end. "There were a thousand more devotees yesterday as well as today compared to (any) other normal day," Benudhara Sahu, a temple official in Orissa, told Reuters. Many women and children rushed to temples and observed fasts as they prayed for deliverance, officials and witnesses said. Assurances by scientists and the media that nothing would happen counted for nothing for housewife Rukmini Moharana. "I visited temple, prayed to god," Moharana said. "I am observing the fast for safety because god can only save us."

And it's not just places like India; these stories have been scaring the crap out kids worldwide ...

'Big Bang experiment - the end of the world as we know it?' - Reuters Blogs
September 10th, 2008

i want to know that when will the black hole appear to suck in the universe because i really dont want to die i love my family a lot. please please reply and give me as much as information as you can of if we will live or die? - Posted by kuljit kaur

im only 13 and heard this morning what is happenin im scared - Posted by Angel

i dont want 2 die what havewe done wrong 2 deserve 2 die just because scienctist want 2 fine our something - Posted by kieran

hey people. im 12 and im really scared if it will mke a black hole. i dont want to die. why are they doing it anyway? i think its a bit wierd. we were talking about it a school today, and my friends dont want to die either. i still wonder what will happen though. will we live? - Posted by Zahra

Tbh Im REALLY Scared All The Girls Were Talkin About In In School And We Were Like In Tears And Can The Sciencetist Turn The Mashiene Off .
Fair Play They Want 2 But We Dont And We Havent Lived Our Lives Yet But They Have Soo Pleaseee Turnn It Off Im Only 12 Andd It Spooky The Black Hole Havent Come 2 Us ( Yet ) Hopeully It Wont Workk . - Posted by Chelsiee

There was a time when people criticized experiments on electricity, saying 'What possible use could it have?'

[Ryan Thomas]

I reckon that the tiny risk there is with this, would be the best way to die, also why are they fearing death? They believe they're going to go somewhere.. And I thought they wouldn't believe in black holes and science?

[Inny Binny]

If anything goes wrong, Death would be pretty much instant wouldn't it? You wouldn't notice it

I personally doubt it. MBHs can't eat the earth instantaneously - otherwise the black hole in the centre of the galaxy would have eaten the entire thing in seconds. Accretion rates would be reasonably slow.

[Razor]

Oh cool...a decent show then, we won't sleep through it?

[Inny Binny]

Of course, accretion rates of stable MBHs to noticeable ones are calulated at billions of years in worst case scenarios - the value is probably much higher, and in billions of years the earth will have gone anyway.

Of course, you can never be certain! My laptop could spontaneously turn into a black hole due to quantum uncertainty!

[RWood]

Sounds like a preposterous thing to be worried about.

If they don't find the Higgs boson at the energy levels involved, they will still have learnt something. Certainly not just money "down the crapper".